I guess this is one of those inconsistencies that drives me crazy when playing games of this type. Heck, even in non-mmo type games we see this type of thing (remember Aeris from FF7? oh sorry, spoilers!). Yeah, I know it’s all part of building a good story, but do the plot elements and gameplay elements have to be totally exclusive? Maybe simple fixes like instead of player death, they just get knocked out, that way it’s not a big deal if a NPC stays dead. But when you start making exceptions to the rule, you start wondering why the heck you even have Phoenix Downs in the first place. I suppose this all goes back to my earlier questions about immersion, so for me this type of mechanic disparity is kind of troubling. Sigh, least they could do is make it so you see their ghosts when you’re doing corpse runs… that’d be amusing! Heh, come to think of it, from the NPC point of view, all player characters are basically zombies! >D
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They have it diffrent in WARHAMMER 40k dow2! When averag units die they die for good! EXecpt for hero units which are “incapated” and you can see them like they got the wind kocked outta them not dead
see, I like that much better! it removes all the issues of having one group dieing and the other not.
Player death is just a failing mechanic, but for the sake of story you don’t really die (unless you’re an undead type, but that happened prior to your “adventures” beginning).
I am more prone to be upset when npcs come back to life after we killed them, because then you get onyxia 2.0 (you’re dead as of classic, why are you here again?) and 3.0 (Hey guys, we have an excuse for it this time!) and Kael’thas “Merely a setback” Sunstrider.
well… unless you play Demon Souls (or whatever it was). actually DS reminded me of this ancient game I used to love called “The Haunting: Starring Polterguy” where you try to scare people and if you die, you can complete a trial to get your life back.
ha! kinda like questgivers! those guys are zombies or something!
Nononononono, Aerith dun die, she just goes on vaccation! She’s… errrr….. busy playing mini games at the Gold Saucer!
*puts fingers in ears* LALALALALALALALALA
lol! yeah, that was one of the more evil examples of npc death disparagy.
sigh… it was still one of my favorite games of all time!
This reminds of the time my mother told Bambi’s mother got captured by the hunters to take her to a zoo.
mmh.. could be..
I forgot to write the word “me” between “told” and “Bambi’s”, lol.
lol… wait… that didn’t happen?
There are some games that actually make a compelling explaination. Games like LOTRO has ‘Morale’ rather than HP so when you lose your Morale…you are defeated and forced to retreat. Since your enemies are evil people well they die ! Or in an MMO like DC Universe Online, there is no death but simply KO . Or at the new Secret World MMO where your body is preserved by Anima ( an Earth-empowered essence to revive you ) so even if you die, your Anima Essence will endure while the enemies you face don’t have that and will die.
The thing that actually bothers me ( especially in FPS games ) are the infamous ‘Cutscene Wounds’ where your character who can take 1000 bullets while playing can die with 1 cutscene shot…..
Personally , I prefer Half Life 2′s style where the events happen at your pace and you die….well you die. Of course you cannot have that in an MMO or people will quit.
Long story short…it is not a deal-breaker unless it is a game like Walking Dead where survival is the main theme and you can just get eaten by zombies…only to get up and walk like nothing happened. For MMOs you have to find a good explanation other than ” well we don’t want you to quit the game just because you died ! ”
Personally, WoW might have the weakest explanation other than ” you died and your spirit can resurrect ! ”’ … well what about the bosses or mobs I killed ? Their spirit is not ”cool enough” to resurrect ? I mean sure there are guys like Lich King ( Opps spoiler ) whose soul is consumed by Darkness but what about the rest ?….
There you have it, my 2 cents.
ah, I rather like that set up! moral/KO/etc.
oh man! that one bothers the heck out of me too!!! I get that it’s a bit of dramatic effect, but at least show a health bar or something or let the guy take a few more hits before going down.
idk… there have been mmos with some massively bad death penalties! like Allods and the lot that make you buy stuff to reduce death time or others that make you LOSE your items! and then there’s Eve… good luck with that one… some people really want the “when you die, you die”, kinda like hardmode in D3, but for the rest of us sane folks, that’s not very fun.
psh… Lich King needs to buy a subscription… >)
a poison, a weapon enchantment, or a spell, any of those might be able to fuck up a rez if they were done right.
lol, can you imagine a weapon enchant in wow that makes your pvp enemies stay dead forever? so much ragequit… it would be hilarious!
OH NO, THE POOR PIXELS!
well, if you go off of the Reboot show, when NPCs die in game, their sprites die forever! XD
as for pixels… my screen has dead pixels… I mourn for them and the ADD distractions they cause every few seconds.
This discussion gets a lot more difficult when you deal with the fact that most enemies respawn when they die…
that’s part of why skyrim was amazing. enemies were all there for a reason, and they just DIE…except the immortal ones, which were a bit disappointing.
I don’t know, my problem was always that some games have death penalties that are just absurd…minecraft…you just kind of want to stop playing. (Guild wars 2 just kind of annihilates the death penalty :D the worst thign is returning to the fight in WvWvw)
One Problem with things like Skyrim is the fact it doesnt account for user error. Some parts of the game are so advanced, more advanced than other parts of the game. For instance, permanant death vs limited communication. There was this one time, i had been hearing of people looking for a Redguard woman and then in the middle of the wilds i see two people hassling one, I try to talk to both but they wont say anything useful. Thinking I if i rescue her, something will happen i attack the two bandits/guards/assassins/police. After they are dead she just stares at me, saying the same thing. Because of the limited communication and the permanent death I permanently cut off a potential story line/quest line and will never know the truth till i read a guide or make another character. I hate the fact that if i happen to look at someone the wrong way in game, they will become hostile and attack you and your only choice is to die or kill them. That execution you witness in that one city. I thought there was some way to stop it, so i take out my sword and go up there, NOT attacking anyone. But by stepping onto the platform they aggro on me and i have choice but to kill off a person who is no doubt a major plot character.
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Its a game first and foremost. I think scrutinizing the game that much is fairly blind. Do you think Stormwind’s economy could survive with that much gold going to a few certian people and the rest getting nothing?
Its makes for an amusing anecdote , but the fact is ressurection is ONLY in the game so you dont have to remake your character everytime you die. thats the single only reason, and is no way connected to lore more than the name of that guy i saw called Itankforu
yeah, but in skyrim the bodies tended to pile up… there was one city that I kept getting dragon spawns and outside was just piles of bones! XD
man, nothing is worse than taking a creeper to the face when you just found a pocket of gold and diamonds… and of course, it ALWAYS happens!
wow, you killed the guards, you’re missing out… lets just say “blackjack and wenches” were in your future… lol, jk. still, you’re right, that’s a bit of an issue with the Bethesda games cause you could just ruin tons of sidequest after going on a killing spree… just like in the rl…
They COULD do it like that…..except what happens in PvP? Got sworn enemies you are killing but you cant ever kill em cus they are players.
sigh… there are a few guys I’d like to perma kill in game. >)
death penalties in games is a big debate… on one side you want to up the difficulty and make you want to stay alive, on the other you don’t want to just delete people’s characters cause nobody would play that… well, masochists, but most normal folks wouldn’t.
maybe that’ll be a future poll! >D
Well… that´s gameplay mechanics versus lore…
Warcraft does have ressurection spells in lore… however they require insane amounts of energy and their “work” isn´t guaranted.
If body is patched immediately by the spell then most of the time it works… unless the person isn´t especialy old (Anduin Lothar) or significantly weakened (Caine Bloodhoof)…
It also depends on power of dead the character… common priest would have never ressurected Malygos… or Medivh. Generaly the more powerful beeing was, and the longer time it is dead more difficult it is to “ressurect it” if some extraordinary measures weren´t taken
Magna Aegwyn spent decades gathering enough enery to ressurect Medivh (Slain by Lothar and Khadgar in depths of Karazhan uderground)… not to mention ressurection does not always work- Shaman, witch doctors and etc. need to persuade spirits to do it, Priests and paladins need to “persuade” light which while not sentient does not grant all wishes wish, Druids have most control over this power but, nature has some limits beyond which they can´t go, and arcane magic (in this case utilized by warlocs) can patch a body up… but some part of the soul has to be bound as “anchor” so the rest doesn´t go to oblivion.
Sargeras´s soul si banished somewhere, burning legion has his body (it is pretty much useless since there is neither will nor soul in it anymore) but bringing a titan back from oblivion is beyong even combined power of all demons in the universe.
Compared to that, noob like Kaelthas is nothing. Especialy since that Shivara got to his body almost immediately.
ah, very very nice lore bits there! and that’s where it drives me nuts, cause the NPCs have to jump through hoops to get back to life where NooblettesMcgee just does a corpse run and pays 10% durability fees.
still think our PCs should just get “knocked out” or demoralized or something not dead.